youll follow his example. It would be unethical for me to do so. He was fired from the local/regional, and the local/regional bore the lawsuit and payout of the woman. Would you please, so as not to cause me to stumble, stop suggesting that it is wrong to drink alcohol in moderation, or that drinking alcohol in moderation somehow is a failure to love my brothers? Sproultried to get this heard in theDrug Court but was unsuccessful because he was charged with felonies not misdemeanors. Nobody blames him, but nobody fails to monitor his behavior either. Come on People!!!! The Bible does not teach that all sins are equal in severity. But that wouldnt be Godly Submission. Outpatient treatment is not a bad thing. You stated you have been a ligonier for years, so I assume that means you agree with Sproul when he stated a few years ago that Jesus was the ultimate obscenity. However, I have seen two people disfellowshipped at a church, and both of them should have been based on scripture. And the policy among some here to kick them out and to the curb is indeed a Dark Ages policy and shows a complete lack of education on the subject. Though Im not a drinker. I think you are misunderstanding me. @ Velour: A lot of injury can be done by someone driving under the influence of alcohol. Haha. None of the doctors ever diagnosed the root of my problem. Hes also working with the homeless as part of our parish outreach ( i.e service to others). It is also worthy of note here that she was not a church pastor/leader who was preaching to believers from a church pulpit. 4. (Which, admittedly, was not a part of the original discussion.). I can see why you loved him, faults and all. If somebody asks themselves where the line is then the line may be something they have already crossed in their own mind, or else why would they even ask. You arent making any sense in your belief that were all supposed to intuit what Barbara is thinking and therefore she doesnt have to say it. (Is this still considered true? @ Velour: H.A. Am still not seeing how sitting about with other people will cure certain issues such as alcoholism. I sure hope that church members or family members uncover the rest of the sins that have been covered up at St. Peter. Back in 1972 shoulder seat belts werent installed in vehicles. I appreciate H.A.s appropriate anger toward R.C. Many of us then turned to the church for compassion, thinking it was a safe place for full disclosure, only to be abused there too. Her main mistake, perhaps, was not adding more context to indicate that the kicking out was not due *only* to the alcoholism. Why? I am NOT saying that the oppressed one does NOT need attention and HELP!!! Sorry I cant help you, friend. AA in particular is seriously overrated, and even the courts know it. Friend your comment made me weep. I received a thank you today from someone who has just such a struggle, is a Christian, and lurks here. Nor is there any Biblical support for accountability among Christians. Prison might have done Sproul some good. I sustained a skull fracture (from which I could have died had I not undergone surgery quickly), broken toes, a broken pinky, as well as several fractured vertebrae in my neck. Gods Word says that whatever does not proceed from faith is sin (Rom. I offered H.A. We do not support this book or his return to public ministry.. No doubt RC Sproul Jr is breathing a huge sigh of relief that he will not have to face a full criminal trial before a jury. I would be interested in writing a post about. Ashley Madison and then lying, lying, and lying again, never telling the truth about it.Raging at children, taunting them, and trying to erase their mothers memory by destroying and withholding photographs and mementos. I realized I was consumed with anxiety and I sought professional help. But more often than not, we do one or the other of the following with such comments: . No one has said we shouldnt try. Barbara wasnt saying that RC Jr should be thrown out of the church because hes an alcoholic (although some might argue driving drunk with your kids in the car might qualify). Velour said, Some here believe that people with addictions should be kicked out of the church. NOW he is a chaplain and accountant for a senior care facility. I can totally understand RCSproul wanting to protect his son, What I dont understand is his lack of faith in Gid dealing with his son. The story that Friend posted about the love, care, concern, and inclusion that their church and clergy gave to a woman alcoholic member is a testament to the Gospel at work. Today children would be removed from such an environment, but in the deep deep South 60 years ago this was not the case. Sure, those consequences may be really really hard. When youre a non-drinker at social functions, the drinkers noticed. It has nothing to do with the point that blaming the father for the sins of the son is not logical To say the least . I got to tell them, they were somewhat angry at me but there was a lot of emotions. Find local and national death notices, funeral notices, obituaries, in memoriams, and acknowledgements at funeral-notices.co.uk, plus a directory of over 3,000 UK Funeral Directors Excuses it. I have updated the post with photos of the injuries I sustained almost 45 years ago because someone chose to drink and drive. im in those environs every so often. Deborah wrote: I know people, who are close to me, involved with St. Peters I love and miss dearly. Barbara Roberts, to the best of my understanding, has no education about addiction treatment, its prevalence in the church, and the multi-pronged approaches that should be taken in getting people help. You asked why my specialty was. 4. RC2 has not been a humble, exemplary church leader. There are people who are alcoholics and yes, the first drink (beer, etc.) Put that drink away now! Here as I type these words, there is a bottle of wine sitting on the kitchen counter within my view. Today that little churchis her home church. The fact that he felt ok about this statement says a lot of about an addicts powers of denial. Thats just not cool. Would you please, so as not to cause me to stumble, stop suggesting that it is wrong to drink alcohol in moderation, or that drinking alcohol in moderation somehow is a failure to love my brothers? To seek to return to the Lord means to leave behind all of those temptations that cause one to fall and to no longer go where one is tempted. Ditto for medications, which may need to be changed to find the right one. Sin leveling at its very finest. Barbara is correct on the I Cor.5 text. Dr. R.C. Should you have been kicked out of church because you struggled with depression, anxiety, or any other problem? I agree with you, Daisy, that churches should not be giving crummy advice to people. He DOES speak of a time to cut off fellowship with a believer who does not repent of sin when someone goes to him about it. Please read and then perhaps you will be able to respond according to what I ACTUALLY said. Sproul Jr. didn't hurt himself, his kids, or anyone else when he was operating a vehicle in an intoxicated state. 3 Or dont you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? For example a young man who was one of RC Jr's personal assistants had lost his driver's license because of multiple DUIs. Under what circumstances did you become aware of alcohol abuse in these people-that might be a tip off. What a hateful thing to recommend that be done for someone with a serious substance abuse problem. I also had lacerations above my eyes and on my arms and legs, along with scalded skin from an exploding radiator. He sounds like a great big jerk and a control freak. All the years I spent visiting MHPs (mental health professionals) in person, where I drove to their offices, were basically a waste of my time. This includes parishioners suffering from alcoholism, or female parishioners suffering from a desire to read scripture in public. Most alcoholics go to in-patient treatment programs for 30 days to 90 days. My point was that RC Jr. appears to be / have been a controlling cult leader, which is similar to what your ex-pastor sounds like from what I remember reading. I am not giving him a pass on his abusive behavior. got the functioning of Al-Anon and sponsorship incorrectly? He has been defrocked along with other troubles and has worked for years for his father who continued to pay him out of Ligonier funds in spite of his issues. Im not seeing how sitting in a church building once a week listening to sermons treats things such as depression or alcoholism. I am guessing that since took the Pirates job, that money was an issue for him, and my nickel bet is thats behind this book. But it should be tried. This is done to build up the body of Christ unto the maturity and the unity of the faith. You said, When asked we can offer suggestions where they might find help. We have gone several rounds. ~ja]. I sustained serious injuries as well a skull fracture, broken bones, and quite a few cuts (I am blessed that I didnt lose my eyesight because I had lacerations above both eyes). The job description was medical officer, non-clinical for the VA in which I reviewed medical records and tried to explain medical things to people who had no medical training, including but not limited to the lawyers on the BVA (Board of Veterans Appeals). I love this story. She was in the hospital for several months after the accident. But then there is whats known as the functional drunk or the functional alcoholic. Functional drunks tend to be over-confident of themselves and, therefore, may become reckless behind the wheel and take dangerous risks. So far, nobody has mentioned Jr.s recent second marriage. but continue in the faith. In the midst of my own imperfections, it was difficult for me to find peace in my assurance. I would dearly love to avoid the aforesaid black hole, and so I wont attach this point to any particular name, but I agree with it: if indeed Mr Sprouls executive oversight of the organisation is as it has been described here, then alcohol is one more reason he needs to be removed, not just as CEO, but from membership of the organisation. But there is a great deal of good help and it should be tried. Would your answer remain the same? (LogOut/ I would call this sin gone amok. By the way, I am agnostic on the topic of if an alcoholic should be kicked out of church or not. I posted my earlier reply to you too soon and I didnt answer your point. Please check back later for why I think this article is pertinent. I read that on Wade Burlesons blog. Ive taken alky friends and acquaintances to AA meetings, so I know both programs pretty well. Also, I am never remotely tempted to pretend that I could give up insulin or that I dont have a problem controlling my blood sugar. How do you see it different from me? The elders at our former church were quite enamored of RC Sr, RC Jr, and their teachings. In fact, I get very nauseated from using any sort of opioids. He is now a wonderful father and husband. Someone tried to organize a bedside vigil, yet this proved unnecessary: many people loved this woman, and they showed up at all hours to sit with her, although she was unconscious. 1960. I saw several psychologists and psychiatrists in person over years, and none of them diagnosed me properly, and so were unable to help me. So what did his parents hope to teach him from that? The person will be encouraged to continue the behavior. The Bible shows us how, and helps us to do that. This is in keeping with working the steps with a sponsor in a recovery program and cleaning up the wreckage of ones past.. . I believe that the church, as church, needs to stay out of it. In short, Velour, I was trying to say that my experience has shaped my view of excommunication as re-defining a relationship from fellowshipping together to reasoning together. We did not do that with the lady in question who was going on and on about codependency. Not sure I would quite go this far (God is the only that can really say this) but RC2 certainly has denied Gods power that Paul wrote about in II Tim 3:5. Instead she said ha ha and discussed kicking him out of the church, complete with scripture verses to justify the deed. Yes, he was suspended, but he was suspended WITH PAY. Thank-You Love! I did check the link that H.A. where driving under the influence is concerned, makes things patently clear. You said, We part company, however, over the theological issue of how to deal with people who are struggling with addictions in the church. R.C. I always encourage people who need help to see professionals. Some of it I dont think is fair, but there may be some merit in it. Having said that, I suggest you read the verses I gave (1 Cor 5:11-13). Not born again huh? link. And as far as dark chocolate goes, I didnt have any with my wine (oops, gave it away), but I did have 1/4 of my Trader Joes dark chocolate and almond bar that I am savoring. I took doctor-prescribed anti-depressant meds for years. I clearly said there was no such correlation, that any excuse to the contrary is not accurate. I had a wound in between my eyes that was so deep you could see the bone. and drive with children while drunk! misunderstood her. Sproul Jr. didnt hurt himself, his kids, or anyone else when he was operating a vehicle in an intoxicated state. We agree on your closing statement, Velour. Finally, if anyone who is aware of further drunk driving or other forms of abuse,I hope that they will call Child Protective Services. Were all (finally) in agreement that the man needs treatment. Sr didnt dissuade them he encouraged it. I think where we differ is that I did not see Barbaras comment as a blanket endorsement of kicking all addicts/alcoholics out of every church. And FWIW as an RN I did mostly OB except for one year in public health with my little black bag in the slums of my home town. So sorry my lived experience doesnt bolster her view points and philosophy. However, that is how I see that particular passage: social danger to others, or more than looks and testimony. In the 12-point plans that are out there, an alcoholic would do well to pick Jesus as his higher power. You would think a preacher would have that figured out. The next tweet shows a message from Pine Hills Church when I inquired if their church is charismatic and asked about the denomination. or a reviler, [verbal attack, slander, violent language]. Believe me, I am all for treatment, and I am extremely frustrated that there seems to be no way to help someone who doesnt want treatment, whether they deny they have a problem, or they admit that they have a problem but they dont want treatment anyway. 2008 - 2023 INTERESTING.COM, INC. did comment above and gave us some important facts (and a lot of fiction too): Sproul Jr. has done. I speak from some experience on this. Parish? He was also driving at 30 mph for at least 2 miles with a flat tire on I-469. Many Christians, including from other cultures and countries, incorporate alcohol just fine in their lives without any problems. I had already read your first comment about Barbara and codependency. Im fortunate in that my Dad did get sober via AA. The key part to what Deborah added was the addict has to want to be helped., Ill admit to being too lazy to scroll back up the page to read Barbs original comments, but I dont recall her asking for anyone to be publicly humiliated (?). from her years of alcohol abuse. throw him out of the house. It just sounds creepy to me. I fully expect the 2000 BF&M to be modified in the future to make it more Calvinistic. Churchill might not be the best example; according to his daughter, he drank less than commonly believed. Think about grace being the last act in the story, which I think it may be for us all. Their brains truly dont work. Hes has experienced tragedy and he needs treatment but at the core is still an odious personality. I am glad for your growth that you have shared with us from codependency that your mother taught you that you had to do, something she apparently learned to survive. H.A. I did not use the word divorce. Go back and read what I said. If he has been drinking as long as is being alleged, Sproul is at high risk of offending again. I was right there, like I always was, at times he would be cussing, why this or that but he needed me. My concern about Barbaras comment is that at no time did she mention in-patient medical treatment for R.C. You may recall that he wrote a post about the Ashley Madison scandal, knowing he had an account, and later had to confess after he was outed. Okrapod is a doctor and I work in mental health. For a while he literally slept out in the reeds by a river. The Bible says that those who profess to be brothers in Christ and are drunkards need to be expelled from the church. She needed that love. Thats way more disclosure than Im even comfortable making right now. Even pre-internet, a person could lug out their printed Yellow Pages phone book and look up the names of psychologists and so on. No prison time. The other individual was an executive at a corporation (think Sr. Vice President). While Intox or Controlled Substance: Passenger Under 18. Hed lost his wife and daughter only works if we ignore chronologies. has been working up to his felonious status for a long time. The idea is to protect the congregation and also try to restore the clergy member to wholeness. Has been dry since Nov. 29, 2016. Heres where it can be complicated to be part of the church if the church environment is where hes long been allowed to play out sinful behaviours should he be there right now? Call me an old fuddy-duddy, but I will upset folks if I keep talking . My thing has always been to understand that the addict is probably hurting others and thats not OK. But putting him out of the church does not stop him getting that assistance. Some people view CR as just a Christian version of AA because it was founded by an AA leader. That was wrong of Sproul Jr. and he did an incredible amount of damage. This is inexcusable and seriously hurts your credibility. Its absolutely inexcusable. (LogOut/ I do think that some forms of patriarchy (as lived by RC Sproul Jr, Doug Wilson, as examples) can encourage conditions that are fertile for alcoholism to develop. Thanks! Velour wrote: I encourage you not to necessarily believe every thing you hear about us. But we're not there yet. At no time did I say that R.C. Yeah, this is exactly why I left church behind. There is more than one issue going on with RC2: alcoholism, spiritual abuse, unrepentant heart, etc. lots of contempt in them there words .. what is the story behind them? The majority of pastors, elders, deacons, church counselors, and church staff in general arent qualified to give counseling of any kind on any subject (even the Bible sometimes), even though they often presume they are. In fact, thats one reason AA has been controversial, because people are sent for mandatory treatment by the courts who dont actual want to quit. 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