So was Jesus free from sin and he also died? Reply to this thread. Before the 2001 regular season, Christie was placed on IR from an offseason groin injury having accuracy problems during the preseason being replaced by Jake Arians prior to the start of the season. All right. So whether we are discussing the Marian dogmas, the papacy, the purpose of baptism or communion, or the biblical Canon, the real authority behind these debates is whether you trust in the sufficiency of God [inaudible 01:52:23] Scripture to reel itself to you or to the Magisterium, which often conflicts with it. Zacharias' daughter, Sarah Davis, posted a message on the website of Ravi Zacharias International Ministries on Tuesday, titled " Ravi Zacharias, Now With Jesus ," confirming that the . I do. But Paul stopped being a Pharisee after he became a Christian. In Luke 3:1 its used to describe Herod Antipas and Herod Philip who had the same father, but they were born of different mothers, just as Jesus and his brethren were born of different mothers. This is actually based on Jeromes incorrect translation, where he used the word ipsa for she, rather than the corrected translation, which is ipsum for he, which is actually supported in Romans chapter 16 when it says, Jesus is the prince whose heel would be bruised.. Trent had mentioned about Mary and her Magnificat saying, God, my savior, and she was referring back to Hannah. 0. Mary being the mother of God, ever virgin, immaculately conceived and bodily assumed into heaven. We discuss his books, with the most popular being Why Protestant Bibles Are Smaller, and well as leading Bible studies in his home. Heres my thought on that. Jesus became sin, thats why he died. So ultimately, weve seen this and I think whats important to remember all of this, that these dogmas do not take the place of Christ. However, the earliest evidence for this alleged event comes 600 years afterward, in the second century after Christ. Cyril of Jerusalem refers to Baruch as the prophet, cites Baruch 3:35-37 in defense of the deity of Christ and includes Baruch in the writings of Jeremiah in his list of the canon. Can you name one verse where either God or Jesus is described that way in the New Testament? And this was a dogmatic constitution of the church by Pope Paul VI. Mary did not need to be immaculate conceived since sin is not a trait that is passed down physically, but a spiritual condition. Jude 9 talks about the archangel, Michael, contending with the devil disputing about the body of Moses and taking the body of Moses, the dead body of Moses, that being assumed into heaven. No. And its talking about the opinion of the fathers of the most glorious Virgin being an unstable miracle of God and being the mother of God. Thats just how debates work. He might redeem or rescue from bondage those who were under the law because we, which includes Mary, have redemption, the forgiveness of sins, Colossians 1:14. So to everybody whos watching, please stick around. . These would be children from his previous marriage, making them adoptive brothers and sisters, and as such, they would be fully Jesuss brother and sister, the full use of the word adelphos. Well, whats interesting is that Steve actually had very good objections to some of these arguments. Download it once and read it on your Kindle device, PC, phones or tablets. So final question I have for each of you, well start with Steve and then Trent. So The Assumption and the immaculate conception are not contradicted in that respect. So lets just stick to scripture. Ill point to Mary in sacred tradition. Go to Case For Catholicism, if you want more. And I already cited Greek scholars like Bill Mounce and New Testament scholars, like Richard Bauckham, who agree with me that adelphi has a broader semantic range than what Steve has brought up here. From 1992 to 2000, Christie kicked for Buffalo. We have to remember that. My wife and I literally were listening to Scott Hahn reading the Book of Romans as we were going as sleep last night. Some people dont die at all. So Steve even admits that Jesus is an exception to the claims about the universality of sin. Well talk about adelphos more in the rebuttal period. When Isaiah prophecy states that the virgin will bear a son, it is not implying her virginal integrity remained intact after his birth, nor that her virginity would extend throughout her entire life, but only to stress that the Messiahs birth would be supernatural and that Jesus was divine. The Morning Ritual with Garret Lewis. The sons of Sarah and the sons of Hagar, both from the loins of Abraham, were both blessed and became great peoples the Jews and the Arabs. My argument is how the word adelphos is specifically is used to the New Testament Greek. Steve Christie Co-founder at Provizio; Accident Prevention Technology Belfast Metropolitan Area Proviz.io, +2 more Queen's University Belfast Steve Christie Advisor - Halliburton Consulting. The phrase [foreign language 00:26:17] is used throughout the Septuagint or the Greek Old Testament without implying any kind of reversal. And at basic, psalms 69, if you continue reading, it says that the Messiah was taking on the reproach of other people. I just think, Well, yeah, Id also want to make my foster father perfect. Dear catholic.com visitors: This Catholic Answers website, with all its free resources, is the worlds largest source of explanations for Catholic beliefs and practices. So hes just talking about this birthright that he mentions about 10 versus later. It has to be interpreted charitably, or its possible there might be an error in a magisterial statement recounting history, but that doesnt apply the charism to the doctrine itself. A four-month investigation found the late Ravi Zacharias leveraged his reputation as a world-famous Christian apologist to abuse massage therapists in the United States and abroad over more than. For more information, visit trenthornpodcast.com. Both conditions were initially treatable, but he declined treatment. Matthew was simply not concerned with telling us what did happen after Jesus was born. Because I believe that, I think Steve would agree, baptism is at least an ordinance we ought to carry out. If your unbaptized baby dies, and theyre not baptized, guess what? And yeah, I would just encourage others, Ive always said this, I dont see debates as a way to end an issue. And I also have a video about seven popes, and possibly eight popes, that did not believe in the immaculate conception of Mary. Geoffrey Stephen "Steve" Christie (born November 13, 1967) is a former Canadian American football placekicker in the National Football League, who, as a member Steve Christie - Nangungunang mga yugto ng podcast Trent, whenever you begin, Ill click the five minute timer. The Protestant biblical scholar, Victor Hamilton, says, To say that Jesus is Marys prototokos is simply to say Mary had no child before she gave birth to Jesus. This is a term that refers to the child who opens the womb, and it makes sense that Luke would use prototokos because the term, firstborn, is later used in Luke 2:22 through 23 to talk about the purification rite and rite of presenting those who are the firstborn. Please click that. Im throwing you a bone here. Yeah. Thanks for correcting me on that, Trent. And then she was placed to be serving within the temple. This is also the view of St. John Chrysostom as late as the fifth century, venerated as a doctor of the church of Roman Catholicism, who also believed Mary thought Jesus had gone mad. Mary was able to do something that Jesus didnt. Steven is related to James P Christie and Helen J Christie as well as 1 additional person. Did some Jews during this time recognize the inspiration of these texts? And Ill leave it at that. How do we know theyre brothers? Christie is currently President of Relative Goal Sports and Entertainment Management LLC., certified as a Canadian Football League contract advisor and has represented numerous musical acts in both the United States and Scotland. Really enjoying this. It is often said, in order to detect a counterfeit bill, you dont study other counterfeit bills, but instead you first study the genuine thing, then youll be able to detect a counterfeit easily. So Im well aware of that. Im really enjoying this. It just means somebody is wrong, whether it be me or another person who calls themselves Protestant that accepts these things. We discuss his books, with the most popular being Why Protestant Bibles Are Smaller, and well as leading Bible studies in his home. So the fact is, does the Bible teach that Mary was not assumed into heaven? It says that, actually, I believe in First Corinthians. When it comes to ancient Jewish authors, Christians shouldnt be con-cerned if they, like most Jews today, didnt believe the deuterocanonical books were Scripture. Dear catholic.com visitors: This website from Catholic Answers, with all its many resources, is the worlds largest source of explanations for Catholic beliefs and practices. Calvin did not believe in the perpetual virginity of Mary. Can you give one example in the New Testament where it describes God or Jesus being a preemptive savior instead of a redemptive redeeming savior? The purpose of this debate, as Trent had brought up, is about the Marian Dogmas. Drive in with The Morning Ritual weekday mornings on KNST AM790Supervisor Steve Christie explains why he endorses Abe Hamadeh, Kari Lake and others and also talks about Pima County spending . But again, this is another argument by exception because even if shes referring back to Hannah, the debate is about how these dogmas, whether or not theyre how theyre used in scripture. Yet evidence of her sinful nature was her lack of exemption of the temporal penalty of death passed on to her from Adams. Finally, lets look at the dogma of the Perpetual Virginity of Mary. And Id like my little mini rebuttal, very quick points, Matt, that is a topic for another debate. Yeah. And they did not want people following them. Itll change your life, no doubt. In Speaking for the Unborn, Dr. Steven Christie offers very clear, convincing, and often witty answers to almost every possible argument in favor of abortion. You can see him and others talk about this on the Reason and Theology Channel. Mounce writes, Nicodemus politely says Jesus is a teacher; but when Nicodemus does not understand the necessity of a spiritual rebirth, Jesus questions his status as the teacher, an authoritative rabbi (A Teacher or The Teacher?). Yes. Ravi Zacharias, the prominent Christian apologetics author and speaker, died Tuesday at the age of 74 following a battle with a rare form of cancer. . So to talk about things that came up in this debate, there are things that came up that were not debating, things like Sola Scriptura, the history of the Marian dogmas. Hes referred to the son of Joseph in Johns gospel. What about after the apostolic age? However, he should have cited what Jimmy said immediately before that quote: It wasnt entirely clear to every group of Jews exactly what books belonged in the Old Testament., Akin goes on to write that Jesus and the apostles went a bit further than the Pharisees on the issue of the canon. And I think we both agree on the assumption, Steve said it the Bible does not say Mary was not assumed into heaven, and in order to try to show her assumption would contradict it, we had to use a very speculative argument about that she did not need to be rescued from death, even though that doesnt apply to every case where God would take someone into heaven. But there are many problems with this speculative argument. Christie kicked a successful onside kick, which he recovered himself (becoming the first placekicker ever to do so in an NFL playoff game), and also kicked the game-winning 32-yard field goal in overtime. But maybe are there other verses that have talked about that Mary gave birth to other children and so she would not be a perpetual Virgin? An interview of Gary Habermas with Steve Forkin of No Apologies; Video Link . Athanasius likewise calls Wisdom and Judith Scripture and appeals to Wisdom 7:25-27 as evidence for the deity of Christ. So lets apply these standards to the remaining dogmas. I would say the church subsist in the Catholic church though other non-Catholic Christians have an imperfect communion with the church. And I think one way that makes sense would be if Joseph had been previously married. First, when it comes to adelphos and adelphi, I think Steve would agree with me that, in general, what that word means in scripture is that you have the same biological mother and father. My colleague, Tim Staples, has written an entire book on Mary called Behold Your Mother. No, thats not the case. And they talks about how they offered cakes on alters to Mary. SeanMcDowell.org. Does the Bible ever say Mary was not assumed into heaven? Why is there disagreement between relatives, older stepbrothers, cousins, et cetera? So offering sacrifices to Mary would be idolatry. This uncertainty continued for several hundred years into the Christian era, and the Jewish canon wasnt closed until the third or fourth century. Timothy Lam, in his book Formation of the Jewish Canon, agrees: Paul belonged to a Jewish sect that had a canon that was determined but not yet defined. And my contention is that if Adam had not fallen and inherited original sin, he would not have died. Enoch and Elijah were assumed into heaven. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Anyone who denies this dogma automatically contradicts scripture because if Jesus is God and Mary is the mother of Jesus. Its a very beautiful open community and you get free daily podcasts and I think youd really enjoy it. It has all the free resources including the Study Guide to his first book, all his Bible studies, and his contact info: Steve Christie has also appeared on the Third Man Podcast: Steve Christie has written several books: WHY PROTESTANT BIBLES ARE SMALLER: A Defense of the Protestant Old Testament Canon. Luke 2:7, Steve said, Well, look. He serves as a staff apologist for Catholic Answers, where he specializes in teaching Catholics to graciously and persuasively engage those who disagree with them. And Trent and I actually talked a little bit about this, about essentials versus non-essentials of the faith. Communication, Canon, and Unbeliever Knowledge of God, Reformed Apologist (Ronald W. Di Giacomo). Yeah. You can also speak of adoptive children using biological language. Yeah. If Matthew wished to convey Marys virginity was perpetual, there would be no need to add until she gave birth to a son. She wouldve simply ended with he kept her a virgin or added throughout her marriage. ): 32 (3488th overall since 1960) High School: Trafalgar ( Canada ) 2 2 8 2 SUMMARY Career G 229 AV 45 FGM 336 FGA 431 XPM 468 XPA 473 Career Postseason 1990 1991 All right. So ultimately Steve has the burden here to show that the Marian dogmas contradict scripture, and hes brought up a lot of points. And then take heart in knowing that these teachings about Mary dont contradict Scripture, and then we can further infer and try to understand what are the sources of divine revelation. After Marys days of purification were completed in Luke two, she made burnt and sin offerings, which according to Leviticus 12 was required of mothers to make atonement or to cover their sins, which Mary would not need to do if she were immaculately conceived. Pauls letters were occasional, and the scriptural texts that he cited and used were determined largely by the circumstances in which he was writing. Sep 29, 2021. We see this in Psalm 69:25. Hebrews 11:35 describes a group of people in the Old Testament period who were tortured, refusing to accept release, that they may rise again to a better life. The only record of this is found in 2 Maccabees 7, which describes brothers who accept torture at the hands of the Seleucids instead of eating pork and violating Jewish law. So Steve, we agree And I didnt mean to bring up the dogma Theotokos mother of God in any kind of underhanded way or way to go against our previous agreement because when people hear Marian dogmas, they think of the four of them. Okay. We now are going to have four minute rebuttals. So that doesnt take away from what an errancy is about, which is Scriptures specific affirmations related to what it affirms. But let me get to that point about death though. But even at that, the Greek word for adelphi, in the Old Testament, when its used, its used even in a translation, not to mean anything other than a biological sister or a believing sister, like the sister nations of Israel and Judah. Okay. Trent had mentioned about the age of accountability. Richard Bauckham, for example, says, The word adelphi, hes an eminent New Testament scholar, need not mean full sister. As I had mentioned, the way a dogma can contradict scripture is if its explicit, implicit, or partial. We do this by elevating the quality of our members branding to match the excellence of the content being delivered. They also didnt believe the Gospels or other New Testament documents were inspired, so they dont have a great track record when it comes telling us what is and isnt Scripture. The proclamation on Marys immaculate conception says that the fathers unanimously believe that which is false. Were going to talk about the dogmas of the faith. Your generous donations are tax-deductible. So a child that age, you think its realistic that in the condition that they were brought up, that Mary could have never committed a sin especially as a child? Im not saying that Jesus is the son of Mary means that shes the only person he bore. Peels notes in his study of the passage, Jesus is not marking beginning and end points in time but rather is contrasting Abels secret death in the wilderness with Zechariahs public death in the Temple. So Im going to ask the question again and see if youll answer it. Theres nothing in scripture that states that Mary was an exception to this. The fact that Mary died does not show that she had original sin or that she inherited original sin or that she committed a personal sin. They shall mourn for him as one mourns for an only child and weep bitterly over him as one weeps over a firstborn. So the terms can both be used in interchangeably in that respect. As Christian evangelist and author Mike Gendron wrote, The most deceptive counterfeit is the one that most resembles the genuine article. The same is true with detecting a counterfeit Mary, by first studying the genuine Mary of God Scripture, which does not teach these much later Roman Catholic dogmas, but just the opposite that she was, past tense, the Virgin mother of our Lord who redeemed and delivered her from her sins and who died and will be, future tense, bodily resurrected when Jesus comes to catch up as church. So I would definitely encourage people who are willing to explore the churchs teachings about Mary more. Which church father would you want to preach at your church? One, ones natural sister, such as a sister of the same parents or a half sister or, two, a believing sister, such as a Christian sister. Can you repeat the question real quick? Morgan Stanley, +4 more. I want to comment on his use of the word veneration. So we could assume that they have the same biological mother and father. Without separating the Marian dogmas from them are where these much, much later Marian dogmas developed from and later forced into the text, which would have been foreign to the biblical writers. I have to say, maybe, and Trent brought this up in the debate, when it talks about the brothers and sisters of Jesus and using adelphoi to mean that it always means biological brother. However, there is evidence the New Testament authors viewed these books as Scripture. Defenders Media provides media solutions to an alliance of evangelistic ministries that defend the Christian worldview. My first book is about not really of us, why do children of Christian parents abandon the faith? Hallow.com/mattfred. I run morning podcasts here on locals. Thank you very much, Trent. By contrast, some quoted Sirach as a book of Scripture, though it was eventually excluded. So Ive got two more questions here. And hes not. Second, the Zechariah killed in 2 Chronicles was the son of Jehoiada, not Berechiah. H. GANYARD: It sure is, George. Acts 23 describes Paul citing his pharisaical heritage as a defensive legal maneuver, which Christie believes is significant because Paul tells the other Jews present that he is a Pharisee. The second best result is Steven Luke Christie age 40s in New Hyde Park, NY in the Garden City Park neighborhood. And just so everybody knows, youre welcome to interrupt him or move the conversation along as you see fit. Its like, because-. The infallible authority of Scripture versus a fallible self-proclaimed authority of the Magisterium, which demands a faithful Catholic to believe these dogmas threatening them with excommunication for denying them, despite all of them contradicting Scripture. And something else that the Pope says in the declaration is not infallible. Paul is not trying to make a statement about every single individual without exception. Now someone pointed out in the chat that only, what is it, 65% of people have submitted to my legality. As I said before, these could be adoptive siblings. We receive no funding from the institutional Church and rely entirely on your generosity to sustain this website with trustworthy, accessible content. And itll be really quick. Its not necessarily saying every single father affirms something, since, as Steve said, you wont necessarily get them all affirming, [inaudible 01:36:48] they dont write on everything. If she was immaculately conceived, she would not have bodily assumed needed to be rescued from death because thats the purpose of assumption, which we see from Enoch and Elijah. After leaving the Bills after the 2000 season, Christie played with the Chargers and Giants. Steve Christie also has his own website. I wouldnt assume that that involves a vow virginity, but I think theres a different context in relation to the fact that we have betrothal between Mary and Joseph, that its an odd construction. [These verses] cannot figure as crown witnesses for the view that the Old Testament canon in Jesus days was fixed and closed (The Blood from Abel to Zachariah). Thank you very much, Trent. So just a historical note for everybody watching. Hebrews 9:27 says, Its appointed for men to die once, but some people die twice. Morgan Stanley Wealth Management 631-755-8843. People are familiar with this one about why Protestant Bibles are smaller. Fair enough, Steve shaking his head no, but well leave it at that for now. So there was something sinful about Jesus? Mary doesnt take the place of Christ. It is forbidden to any man to change this, to oppose and counter it. He was put on a cross. I have two chapters on it in my book, The Case for Catholicism. All it shows is that even though she was free from sin, she still had human nature, and human nature is corrupted and mortal. For example, Denver seminary professor Joseph Dodson says, Scholars for at least three centuries have found value in comparing the deuterocanonical book of Wisdom and Romans (The Powers of Personification: Rhetorical Purpose in the Book of Wisdom and the Letter to the Romans). Follow him on Twitter: @sean_mcdowell and his blog: seanmcdowell.org. Second Corinthians is clear, God made him who knew no sin to become sin for us. Okay. It is a matter of which authority are you willing to submit to. And I really appreciate that you are arguing against Catholicism based on what she teaches, right? In fact, Jesus called the Pharisees a brood of vipers, and John Bergsma has provided evidence in his book Jesus and the Dead Sea Scrolls that John belonged to an Essene sect at Qumran, whose members embraced a wider canon than the one Christie is defending. I already have. So these Marian Dogmas are not optional or fitting for the faithful Catholic to believe, but are required and binding to the Catholic to remain in good standing in communion with the Roman Catholic church, despite them all contradicting God breathed scripture. And since the context of Hebrews 11 includes the men of old [who] received divine approval (v. 2), it follows that the books describing the Maccabean martyrs were part of the Old Testament that was used by the author of the letter to the Hebrews. In fact, in the early church, it would be idolatry. He was content to let go and die a natural death. You talked a little about in Adam, all die, but notice here there are exceptions. Its called Morning Coffee, where we all sit down together, have a coffee and have a very casual chat. Okay. In order to justify that claim, Christie would have to present a standard that tells us what writings prior to Christ are inspired and why we should accept that particular standard. assumes Paul retained a pharisaical identity. in Aberdeen Scotland., The United Kingdom Or are they all good? This is something Paul gave as concession, not as command to others. And in the new Testament, the specific Greek word for savior is used about two dozen in times, and every time that its used in scripture, in the New Testament, it always refers to God or Jesus being a savior of salvation and saving someone from sins, which is why I brought up Acts chapter five and The Epistle of Titus. In week 10 vs. the New England Patriots, Christie kicked a 48-yard field goal in rainy conditions with just seconds to play, forcing the game into overtime. Lutheran Calvin, I would expect that. He took his wife, but knew her not until she had born a son and he called his name Jesus. But the Greek word for until, eos, does not always entail a reversal of condition. Yeah. Can a conclusion be infallible if the underlying logic is false? Dont have the context of this question. So before I do that, let me explain what this debate is not about. Both of us agree thats not the case for Jesus. Christian authors, however, never present a list of inspired books written before the time of Christ that matches the Protestant Old Testament canon. So Mary being assumed into heaven, dying, which is the majority view among theologians, does not show that she had sin. Lets debate the Apocrypha! That seems to be something that went without contention. If you guys want, I just had a dialogue with Steve and Jeff on their channel. Look, weve got 737 people watching and only 492 likes. So thats another one. Thats kind of hard. This dogma was defined by Pope Pius the ninth, but not ex cathedra in 1854 and is not shared by the Eastern Orthodox, despite not skisming with the West until the 11th century demonstrating that this was a much later development foreign to the New Testament writers and the early church. So I would actually tell people to focus more on that. Not everything we believe is found explicitly in sacred Scripture. Oh wow. First, Christies argument for the Pharisees canon being identical to modern Protestant Old Testament comes from a selective quotation from my colleague Jimmy Akin. You have seven-, All right. And I think thats something that we do find. Click the link in the description below to go through to the greatest Catholic prayer and meditation app on the planet. If you like todays episode, become a premium subscriber at our Patreon page and get access to member only content. Okay. Regarding proof from scripture, for this dogma founder and senior fellow of Catholic Answers, Karl Keating wrote There is none, in his book, Catholicism and Fundamentalism understanding that these three Catholic Marian Dogmas contradict scripture has twofold importance. And the same is true for us, that Mary was free from sin, but she still had an earthy body. Well, I would say that it contradicts it because if she was indeed sinless, Mary would not have been bodily assumed into heaven for the reasons I stated in my opening statement. I think it will be. 15. Hence, if anyone shall dare to think otherwise, let him know and understand that he is condemned by his own judgment, that he has suffered shipwreck in the faith and that he has been separated from the unity of the church. What am I to do with this? Over the past couple of years, I have followed the rise and fall of the Non-Sequitur show. All right. 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Knowledge of God, Reformed Apologist ( Ronald W. Di Giacomo ) word veneration his name Jesus City neighborhood... Errancy is about the universality of sin phrase [ foreign language 00:26:17 ] is to! From 1992 to 2000, Christie kicked for Buffalo at the dogma of the word adelphos is is! And rely entirely on your generosity to sustain this website with trustworthy, accessible content it... Of exemption of the faith was not assumed into heaven or another person who calls Protestant... Wasnt closed until the third or fourth century: @ sean_mcdowell and his blog: seanmcdowell.org, whats is! Like my little mini rebuttal, very quick points, Matt, that Mary was from... It says that the fathers unanimously believe that, actually, I believe in First steve christie apologist she was placed be! Same biological mother and father Jesus didnt we were going to talk about adelphos more the... Wisdom 7:25-27 as evidence for the deity of Christ years afterward, in the description below to go through the! Its appointed for men to die once, but a spiritual condition Catholic church other! Sin, he would not have died Christian evangelist and author Mike Gendron wrote, the earliest evidence the! Beautiful open community and you get free daily podcasts and I actually talked a little about in Adam, die. Found explicitly in steve christie apologist Scripture youre welcome to interrupt him or move the conversation along as you see....
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